Introduction
This week I’m joined by Ben Haines who is the Chief Information Officer at Verizon Media.
In this episode, I have a candid conversation with Ben where he outlines his perspective on the CIO role. Has it changed? Or not? We go deeper and he shares how doing a ‘tour’ leading the helpdesk gains business insights. Ben outlines how we, as CIOs, need to change our thinking for both the role and how we lead. Part of that change involves the role of failure and how the CIO engages with the board. Digging deeper, I ask Ben if I were to look at his schedule, what would it look like? And finally, we finish with a lightning round of his perspective on technology including cloud and AI.
Speaker Profiles
Ben Haines Twitter: https://twitter.com/bhaines0
Ben Haines LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhaines/
Verizon Media: https://www.verizonmedia.com
Audio File
Featured Hashtags
#CIO #Leadership #Board #DigitalTransformation #CIOitk
Podcast Transcript
Tim Crawford 0:05
Hello, and welcome to the CIO in the Know podcast, where I take a provocative but pragmatic look at the intersection between business and technology. I’m your host, Tim Crawford, a CIO and strategic advisor at Avoa. This week I’m joined by Ben Haynes, who is the Chief Information Officer at Verizon Media. In this episode, I have a candid conversation with Ben, where he outlines his perspective on the CIO role. Has it changed or not? We go deeper, and he shares how doing a tour leading the help desk gains business insights. Ben outlines how we as CIOs need to change our thinking for both the role and how we lead. Part of that change involves the role of failure and how the CIO engages with the board. Digging deeper, I ask Ben, if I were to look at his schedule, what would it look like? And finally, we finish with a lightning round of his perspective on technology, including cloud and AI. Ben, welcome to the program today.
Ben Haines 1:08
Thanks for having me, Tim.
Tim Crawford 1:09
Hey, it’s always great to see you, and I get to actually see you in person here in New York City, and so I’m really excited to jump into this conversation.
Ben Haines 1:19
Yeah, it’s. I’ve been here four or five months now. I think I’ve seen you more since I’ve been here than when I was on the West Coast, two West Coasters
Tim Crawford 1:27
having to come to New York.
Ben Haines 1:29
Yeah,
Tim Crawford 1:29
love it. So, let’s just jump right in. You know, the CIO role – it’s changed, it’s changing, or maybe it hasn’t changed. What’s your take on who the CIO is, and the role that they play.
Ben Haines 1:43
Yeah, so I think the reality is it hasn’t changed, and what we’ve always been trying to do, but it has elevated in its importance, and you get you get a lot of people who aren’t performing the role that is required, and it’s a business role and I think we kind of forgot that at some point we became rackers and stackers of servers and the department of no and went through that whole cycle, but that’s what we weren’t there for, all right, we weren’t there to do that, we were there to improve the business internal and external,
Tim Crawford 2:16
How does that, how does that evolve though to get from that racker and stacker mentality to that business focus, because if you think about it, the CIO that’s in the role today has been there for a while, more than likely,
Ben Haines 2:30
yeah, and that can be the problem.
Tim Crawford 2:33
Okay,
Ben Haines 2:35
I mean, the, you know, we got to a point where the business caught up, you know, there was that time where the IT guy was the smartest guy in the room, right, and all that’s been stripped away, and so now it’s about business objectives, and, like I said, that’s where we should have always been, but we kind of got lost.
Tim Crawford 2:56
Okay, so hypothetically, I’m in the CIO role, I’ve been a racker and stacker. I want to make that transition. What am I doing? Or, because it’s not just about me as a person in the role I’m in. There are other factors, like folks outside of it, they’re folks within it, within your organization itself.
Ben Haines 3:17
I think the harsh reality is some will never make it okay, they’re just infrastructure people, and that’s okay. You have to, you have to evolve and get connected to the business and understand, you know, every penny you’re spending, how that is helping the company move forward. And so I actually coach some of my people through this, and VPs, and we look at their career path, and I’m like, okay, you got to do a, you’ve got to do a year on the help desk, and they’re like, really, what did I do wrong, but I’m like, no, you need to understand, because that’s where it all starts, that’s where the customer service starts, and you’re going to hear every problem in the company to do with it, the help desk, so you need to understand that the heart of it, though, is the business applications and the business process, not even the applications, it’s the process and how we’re helping the business get stuff done, and so you look at that trajectory in an existing CIO, you know, they’ve got to get connected with finance, connected with HR, connected like, how is the, you know, the pulse of the company working, and well, we call it GSD, and you can, yes, you know, stuff done, but yeah, it’s really connecting at that level,
Tim Crawford 4:34
is, is you think about kind of moving your staff into these other roles, I can see how, especially in maybe emerging technology companies, there there might be a little bit of disagreement or hesitation to that. There’s probably also some thinking amongst the CIOs, amongst the IT leadership, of can we afford to do that, can we afford to put someone through a rotation. Of the help desk or through another function. How have you found success in being able to do that?
Ben Haines 5:07
I think there’s a change in thinking there, because it’s always come from, can we afford to? What about what if we don’t
Tim Crawford 5:15
love that,
Ben Haines 5:15
you know? And it’s like, okay, if we don’t cycle these people through, and yeah, what are we missing out on building the next leaders, building the next generation of it, and ultimately, when you’re looking at leaders, they’re there for their leadership capabilities, they’re not there because they’re the best technologists, okay, you do need that, CTOs, you know, there’s definite roles like that, ICs, you know, architects, but they’re leaders, and so they, they’re especially when you get up to the CIO level, a lot of our time is spent with people, so that transforms across whatever your service delivery is,
Tim Crawford 5:54
that’s a really good point, leaders are not necessarily technology specific, they’re leaders, and so that should be transformative to any number of roles.
Ben Haines 6:08
You know, back to a question before, you know, an existing CIO, some of the best things I can do is bring business leaders in. Okay, and you know, they know nothing about technology, or they’re your go-to in HR, like they’re the HR technology specialists. Bring them in, right, and they will give you that true business perspective. And some of my best people, they’re not technologists,
Tim Crawford 6:34
and I’ve had the fortunate opportunity to work with and meet several folks on your team, and I have to say it is an incredible group of folks, not just individually, but how they work cohesively too. And for those that are listening, you have no idea it’s.. it’s an amazing place that you created. No, you deserve it. You really deserve it. And I think that just shows on on your capability, going back to that team, though, as you start to build those folks up, I mean, at some point these are amazing people, and they also need to kind of rise to the next level and move on, and that’s got to be hard too,
Ben Haines 7:20
yeah, it’s, it’s a long road. Ultimately, it’s built on trust, and the number one thing you’ve got to do is look at yourself. So, for me, I had to get out of the weeds and let them, you know, run. Can you give an
Tim Crawford 7:38
example of, of what you mean by you getting out of the weeds,
Ben Haines 7:42
so different situations. I think you need different approaches. So, we had a merger two years ago, AOL Yahoo, 220 year old at that point, technology dinosaurs in technology years, it’s a long time, could not have been more similar, and we were given an pretty extreme aggressive target, so I had, you know, two teams merging together, and I went in very top down, right? So I was the first three months I was in everything and very direct, and you know, it was an approach we decided to make this happen quickly. We just need to get in and go, like it wasn’t. We couldn’t have the whole nice decision making process. We there’s no time for that. Yeah, we had to make some big decisions quickly, and ultimately it fell on me, and I went in, and to a certain point, the team really appreciate it, because it’s like it was really clear what we’re doing, there wasn’t a lot of discussion, and we ran, and then six months later we’re getting through this, and a year later, and now we’re two years in, so I’m now giving high level direction, and that leadership of, hey, you know, we need to go take that mountain, you work out how you do it,
Tim Crawford 9:04
and I’ve actually had the opportunity to see how you do that, how you convey that message.
Ben Haines 9:11
Yeah,
Tim Crawford 9:11
and it’s pretty darn impressive, but it’s, it’s also pretty unique too.
Ben Haines 9:16
Yeah, it’s sad. It shouldn’t be like we pay a lot of people a lot of money for some really good people, and they’re smart, and you’ve got to give them that room, and I think the hardest thing as a leader, you’ve got to be okay with them doing it differently than how you would do it, like it’s really okay, they got there, but I could have done it three steps easier, or you know, but that’s okay. You’re not there to do the steps right, and they build their confidence, and they execute. You’re like, great. So you give them the parameters, and it’s generally head count and budget. Sorry, guys, this is how it’s fixed, and go work it out, you know. And then they’ll come back asking for more, but I. No, we work through that, so yeah, it’s hard to let go, but it’s, it’s absolutely critical.
Tim Crawford 10:06
Do you find interesting parallels between that and raising kids? Oh, in some ways,
Ben Haines 10:11
yeah, absolutely. I mean, let me be clear, not to
Tim Crawford 10:17
suggest that your team are your children, no, but
Ben Haines 10:20
there’s times,
Tim Crawford 10:21
but there are maybe parallels between
Ben Haines 10:25
absolutely when I had my, my first, and you go through the two year old, three year old stadium, and then you come to work, you know, like, wow, okay, yep, just went through that one, but it’s a discovery for a lot of people, and, and it is, it’s building that trust, you know, as you kids, you, you want them to, you can’t wrap them in bubble, bubble wrap, right, it’s like, and I think this, I also noticed that the dads and the mums is like, the dads would be like, ah, yeah, you know, yeah, fell over, scrape their knees, and sometimes, you know, the other partners like, and then sometimes it’s the inverse. I’ve seen it, actually, in all seriousness, where the father’s like, “Ah, and the mother’s, “Let him jump off of it. It doesn’t matter, I’ll learn,
Tim Crawford 11:13
you know, the analog that I’ve used with my teams in the past is something we can all relate to, and that’s riding a bicycle, right? You can tell a child that’s going to ride a bicycle for the first time. Here’s how you ride it: you got a balance, you need a little bit of momentum, but you also know they’re going to fall off, scrape some elbows, scrape some knees, some tears are going to be shed. And then, what are they going to do? They’re going to get back on it, and they’re going to ride it again. So, do you put the bubble wrap around them, or do you tell them as much as you can, and then let them figure it out,
Ben Haines 11:43
and that, and kids pounce,
Tim Crawford 11:45
they do,
Ben Haines 11:46
so it’s good, but people do as well. There’s resilience you build in there, right? And as you get to the workplace, and one of the things that ties into that, and we talk about it a lot, is accepting failure, right? And it’s often seen as a, oh my god, we can’t fail, and we’re working with a company now where, like, failure is not an option, must be perfect the right time, and that’s paralyzing. And I’ve got to staff meetings where I’m like, okay, guys, what have, what have we done this quarter? And they’re like, you know, we’ve done this. I said, well, where have we failed? Like, no, we haven’t. I say, well, we’re not going hard enough. Okay, if you’re not.. if you’re not, my.. and this isn’t taking down your ERP for three days, right? You put it in context, it’s.. it’s like, no, we tried this and it didn’t work, so now we’re going to do this, and next time we’ll get it to work. I’m like, awesome. If you’re not trying that, we’re not, we’re not pushing the envelope,
Tim Crawford 12:43
so I can see how you could do that within your organization, especially if you have a good, strong, solid team working with you. How do you start to get those outside of your organization to accept failure too? And that’s okay, and that’s actually a good thing,
Ben Haines 13:02
yeah, it is a little tougher to quarter everything you do is trust, and you build trust through delivery, and so you can’t come in and be brand new, and you’re working with this department, and you know things are failing, so you do have to have a track record, and we had that actually with our ERP team, our finance group, and years and years of a great track record, and you know, if we do do something, we fix it quickly, and we move on, and because they trust that we’re going to deliver. We actually had a really big – I called it a big failure. I was a little hard on the team, quite honestly. We changed intranets, which, like, yeah, and
Tim Crawford 13:44
we’ll just leave that right there, yeah,
Ben Haines 13:46
but we had to, like, this old package was dying, you know, the bought by private equity, they’re taking all the money out, and, and it was not a very good launch, and this was Q this year, and I was not happy. Okay, and this wasn’t a thing we needed to fail at, but the entire company, and especially the groups closer to us, they’re like, no, that’s cool, like, because we’ve, we’ve had these two years of this merger and just knocking out of the park, and they’re like, no, we get it, okay, you know, shit happens, basically, and you know, we showed the roadmap out of it. Here’s where we’re going. No, we’re not rolling back. Okay, we’re in this, and they trusted us. So, because we had that track record, and that’s the goes back to the help desk, like what’s your customer service, and you know, we talk about keeping the trains running on time. Yeah, it’s boring, but it’s critical to let you do the cool stuff,
Tim Crawford 14:43
but the other thing that that comes out of that too is you’re also transparent, you’re real and you’re transparent, it’s not trying to sweep something under the carpet, hopefully nobody will see
Ben Haines 14:55
that is a that yeah absolutely and you. Have to be 100% transfer,
Tim Crawford 15:03
so speaking of that, let’s take it up a couple notches and talk about the board and how the CIO engages with the board, especially in today’s day and age, where risk is a regular board conversation. Where is the CIO in that conversation, from your perspective,
Ben Haines 15:24
I guess where it is or where it needs to be. Yeah, that’s a really good
Tim Crawford 15:28
point. That’s a really good point.
Ben Haines 15:30
You know, I think, yeah, we’re definitely moving on from, you know, bought conversations about obviously revenue and the CFOs talking about profitability and the CEO, and all of that. Most companies now, you can’t get anything done without technology, like it is critical, and the board needs to be made aware of where those pitfalls are, right? And make decision-based risks. And I’ll give you one example. I keep going back to this, because it’s, it’s just fundamental, but we had an ERP platform five years, the CFO denied upgrading it. We got to a point where 10 years out of date, right. And this is a six, $7 billion business, so Oracle’s no longer supporting it. We can’t do tax tables like these are all this is a pure risk decision at that point, and at a board level, you need to know that, right? And then you flip that into security issues, now, which is, yeah, front and center for everyone, and we’ve had some good experience with that. I like, yeah, you’ve said we had some good experience with remedying, remedy, remedying, so that gets to the board level, because there’s significant investment, and that is all about, okay, we invest whatever, 110 whatever, millions, here we are going to avoid potentially this, whatever this is, and that is pure risk, and that’s especially in a consumer business, you lose, you know, you lose the public, you lose a lot, and that’s board level conversation,
Tim Crawford 17:04
but I see, I see a gap there. You’ve got board members who are traditionally not tech savvy, that’s not their background, and this has actually come up in past episodes of the podcast, you know, Patty Hatter, who she had explained that many board members might have a financial background or a business background, but it’s not a technology background, and then take what you said just a few minutes ago, where you’ve got CIOs that are very tech centric, you know, the stackers that that technology mentality. How do you bridge that gap, because that, that’s not just a small gap, that’s a pretty large chasm.
Ben Haines 17:44
Yeah, look, the harsh reality is they’re the wrong people to be in front of the board just because they have the title of CEO, so they
Tim Crawford 17:53
being the CIO that has the
Ben Haines 17:55
infrastructure. Yeah, if you can’t explain, and this isn’t at just the board level, at any level, like why you’re investing that money and what the potential risk is, that’s a business discussion, it’s not a technology discussion, so to speak, right? Yeah, that’s the lever
Tim Crawford 18:13
sure
Ben Haines 18:13
that you’re pulling, but you’ve got to be able to explain that in business terms, and look, you get into all the nuances, where does the CIO report into, and there’s all those types of things as well, but no, it is a big jump, and that’s that critical piece where the CIOs aren’t doing the job if they’re not exploiting that business risk.
Tim Crawford 18:37
If I were to look at your schedule and kind of map out different categories of time, and say here is time that’s spent on business, and I’ll just put a couple buckets here: business-centric conversations versus technology conversations, and maybe there’s a third bucket of self development in there, or just thinking, even how would those percentages look, and how has that changed over time for you?
Ben Haines 19:05
So, yeah, it’s definitely changed from technology being, you know, a really cool fun 80% of where I want to spend my time, and to me the ideal, especially when you get to executive levels, I spend.. I’ll talk about my ideal day. 30 40% would be with my team, my directs, especially, and understanding what they need, helping them, explaining strategy, you know, all that type of thing. The other 30 would be with the business, understanding, you know, what are we trying to do, and where can I help unblock things, all of that. What are we up to 60? So then there’s, and this is where I actually found it hard that 20% of the time I may be able to dabble in tech, and I’m feeling way behind in the tech, right? And because I just don’t have the time to spend there, and now. I’m not. Can you go and learn this, and come and give me the summary, because it looks really cool. Just, and I’m not smart enough to go dabbling anymore. So, and then, yeah, look, maybe 10, 20% on yourself, and a lot of that self, it’s not just learning, it’s thinking, it’s having that space to step back is critical. And I used to, I’ve got to get back to it with my ER. I don’t have, I won’t have meetings before 10am That was my standard. And then it just all got crazy busy, but that gave me time to think. I’m, I’m more productive in the mornings, and so I’ll do all my meetings in the afternoon, and I’ll spend, you know, back then it was six to 10am or whatever that time frame where I’m, yeah, I’ll do some emails, and then I’ll just do some reading, and you know, do all that really deep thinking work. That’s the ideal scenario.
Tim Crawford 20:54
So, let’s switch gears once again and talk about technology, that thing that you’re feeling a little behind the times on, although I have seen examples, which we won’t talk about today, but I’ve seen examples where that isn’t the case, and you actually are pretty darn tech savvy. Cloud, let’s just do a lightning round, quick lightning round. Your take on cloud, cloud, public, private, hybrid, multi,
Ben Haines 21:20
yeah, messy, messy, you know. I think we’re.. I still remember back when I was a CIO at Box, I was thinking, was 2014 and a lot of my role was talking to customers, and I saw over an 18 month period where we were like banging our heads against the wall, convincing people we’re like, no, you need to be doing SaaS at that point, but it’s cloud, and then by the another 18 months it had flipped around, so now it’s cool, everyone’s in there, everyone’s adding their flavor, and it’s in most of the time it’s the right things to do, I think we’re just at the start, still, right? It’s
Tim Crawford 22:03
still at the start. You have cloud,
Ben Haines 22:05
yeah. It’s become cool, and you’ve got to think about, especially like when you’re in Silicon Valley, it’s a big bubble, right? It’s one reason I like moving to New York. You get a different aspect. It’s a big bubble. So, yeah, you first start up there and you’re not in the cloud, you’re weird, right? And that’s just not, huh? What do you mean? You’re not, you’re not an AW, or yeah, but you think about traditional enterprises, and I spent a lot of time in enterprise, they’re still getting, they’re like, okay, we’ve just finished our VMware optimization of our data center, and I’ve got a three year investment in capital, or five year investment that’s advertising what cloud I’ve got to put, I’ve got to go to AWS, and so everyone’s in this different lifecycle, right? And I think there’s a lot of unfortunate marketing bullshit coming into it, the market textures out there, it’s, and that’s how you know it’s popular, right? Because everyone’s trying to sell it, and so, yeah, it’s messy right now, and I think we’re going to see it settle down, of course, over the over the coming years, and yeah, it’s it’s it’s going to be interesting. I think there’s going to be a little bit of pullback. The opex sticker shock is real, and a lot of companies, lot of companies are lifting and shifting. They’re not architected for the cloud, right? But they want to. It used to be, honestly, used to be tick the box by getting boxed to say, oh yeah, they’d go to the boards, yeah, we’re in the cloud because we bought box.com all right, and now they’re ticking the box, so yeah, we’ve got AWS, and all they’ve done have listed and shifted VMs, and they’re racking up an opex bill,
Tim Crawford 23:52
and they’re not really sure about the value that it’s bringing to their company, but
Ben Haines 23:56
they know they should be doing it, so yeah, I think there’s a, you know, some company that they need to make some mistakes, and we’ll just get through it, and
Tim Crawford 24:06
those are some pretty painful mistakes, though
Ben Haines 24:08
they are, but I say, unfortunately, for technology, we’ve made a lot of those mistakes, but I think the difference with cloud is the speed of which they can happen, and you know AWS can be an open checkbook, hardcore, and so you, you’ve got a speed and velocity there that compounds these things, and you’ve got to understand what you’re doing.
Tim Crawford 24:38
Okay, next one, artificial intelligence, also known as the acronym AI,
Ben Haines 24:45
yeah, hype cycle, like I think it’s at the peak, or it’s about to peak, right? I’m not a hype cycle, yeah, it’s one of those things, it’s the marketing is all around AI, a lot of it is machine learning. Learning, and this, where I’m not deep technical on that, but you know, a lot of it is about machine learning, and it sounds sexy to say, you know, I’ve got AI, it’s still in its infancy, and it’s, it’s, it’s hard, it has huge potential, and that’s why there’s so much hype.
Tim Crawford 25:17
There seems to be this continuum that gets munged together, depending on the architecture that comes out, and some of the even some of the promotion that is happening around these technologies by those, and just kind of offering opinions where it could range anywhere from advanced analytics, RPA, ML, true AI, much of what we see today, which is tagged AI, doesn’t have the artificial, and maybe doesn’t have a lot of intelligence to it. It’s,
Ben Haines 25:51
yeah,
Tim Crawford 25:51
it’s further down this. I think we’re
Ben Haines 25:52
also at the point where I don’t know if it’s converging or not, but you know, we got big data, the data lakes turned into data swamps. The reality is you need that data for AI to work, and the machine learning right. And so we’re still back to that age job problem if you don’t have clean data, and yeah, now you need some super smart people to be doing the AI. Yeah, there’s a lot of hurdles there, but it is extremely good. We’re doing one program within Enterprise. We’re doing a heap in our consumer side, massive investment in AI, super smart people, like it’s crazy stuff. But we decided we went with a package vendor, because most IT shops, you don’t have that expertise, and it’s been interesting. It’s one of our innovative projects we’re doing this year, and we’re seeing some really interesting feedback on it, and so it is helping. One thing we’re at the point is, how do you judge it? So, how do you actually classify it helping? And
Tim Crawford 27:00
do you mean, how do you value it? Yeah, what is the value of what you’re putting in place,
Ben Haines 27:05
and, and, yeah, it is valuing it, but it’s also there, what is it really doing? So, yeah, I guess it’s valuing it, and we’re, you know, maybe changing how we thought it was going to impact. So, yeah, it’s a great exercise. The company we’re working with is excellent, great, but we’re finding we don’t have the data to support it.
Tim Crawford 27:26
That’s actually very interesting, and actually just had another conversation with a guest on the podcast just recently that was explaining how they didn’t have enough data to really make AI valuable or even machine learning from that, for that matter, and so the data does become really critical, but it’s also making sure you have the right data too.
Ben Haines 27:48
Yeah, data, and for us it’s process, and you know, we’re not ITIL. ITIL has nothing to do with service, so we got rid of it. Okay, but these things need that structure, so if you had the ITIL library there, and everything tagged, and all that, he can navigate it right. It’s not really artificial intelligence, but it’s learning how to navigate all these different things that come in. So, yeah, it’s interesting. We’re in an interesting phase.
Tim Crawford 28:15
Great. So, as we kind of wrap on this episode, one last question for you, What excites you most? Don’t worry, it’s an easy question. What excites you most is you think about the CIO role, you think about kind of where you are personally, professionally. What excites you most, coming up?
Ben Haines 28:33
Just broadly, I do think this is probably one of the best times to be a CIO, if you understand the business if you can truly knit that together. I had a boss five years ago tell me, CIO career is over. We’ve all heard that, and I won’t tell you what I told him, but you know there was a lot of negativity around it, and there’s still bad actors out there, for sure, but it’s a critical piece to every business now. So, I think that’s the most exciting part about it, is people see it and they know they’ve got to get this right. And also, I think it’s good that the business tolerance level for bad actors is pretty low now, and with SaaS and all that, they’re just going and doing it themselves. I mean, the best way to know if you’ve got an ineffective CIO is look at your shadow, it right?
Tim Crawford 29:26
Interesting, that’s a great..
Ben Haines 29:28
I mean, it’s there’s a negative and a positive to that. I
Tim Crawford 29:32
was just gonna say there.. there are two ways you can look at shadow IT. Shadow, it could be a negative or it could be valuable. It depends
Ben Haines 29:39
on the CIO, because their defensive CIO will see all that as bad, and it’s bad because the IT team isn’t delivering, so the business is doing it,
Tim Crawford 29:49
and they see it as threatening,
Ben Haines 29:51
and threatening, right, and I’m like, good, you should be threatened, because the positive is we’re trying to run an enterprise of 20,000 And people, someone spins up something in a work group, they get it all working, they’re like this is like it’s the perfect use case, and then they like, hey, hey guys, can you help us make this enterprise wide? Sure, why wouldn’t you?
Tim Crawford 30:15
Absolutely,
Ben Haines 30:15
so yeah, it’s two different ways of looking at it.
Tim Crawford 30:18
Very good, Ben. As always, it’s a pleasure to hang out with you, spend some time, and chat a bit. Thanks for joining the podcast as well.
Ben Haines 30:27
Cool, great chatting. Thanks, mate.
Tim Crawford 30:30
For more information on the CIO in the No podcast series, visit us online at CIO itk.com or you can find us on iTunes, Google Play, and SoundCloud, don’t forget to subscribe, and thank you for listening.
Unknown Speaker 30:43
Thank.
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