Building the innovative learning health system with Aaron Miri

Introduction

This week I’m joined by Aaron Miri, the Chief Information Officer for Dell Medical School and the University of Texas Health Austin.

In our discussion, Aaron talks about the complexity within the healthcare ecosystem and how they leverage innovation in atypical ways. He outlines his view of building the learning health system including the hospital that Steve Jobs would have built.

Aaron talks about how healthcare is complex, but how he navigates the challenges of siloed data, legacy systems and established processes to focus on the patient. Lastly, he discusses the importance of policy and his congressionally-appointed role on the US Health and Human Services Health IT Advisory Committee (HITAC).

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Speaker Profiles

Aaron Miri Twitter: https://twitter.com/AaronMiri

Aaron Miri LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronmiri/

Dell Medical School: https://dellmed.utexas.edu

UT Health Austin: https://uthealthaustin.org

Health Information Technology Advisory Committee: https://www.healthit.gov/hitac/committees/health-information-technology-advisory-committee-hitac

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Audio File

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Featured Hashtags

#CIO #Leadership #HealthIT #healthcare #DigitalTransformation #CIOitk

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Podcast Transcript

Tim Crawford 0:05
Hello, and welcome to the CIO in the Know podcast, where I take a provocative but pragmatic look at the intersection between business and technology. I’m your host, Tim Crawford, a CIO and strategic advisor at Avoa. Hi, this week I’m joined by Aaron Miri, the Chief Information Officer for Dell Medical School and the University of Texas Health Austin. In our discussion, Aaron talks about the complexity within the healthcare ecosystem and how they leverage innovation in atypical ways. He outlines his view of building the learning health system, including the hospital that Steve Jobs would have built, Aaron talks about how health care is complex, but how he navigates the challenges of siloed data, legacy systems, and established processes to focus on the patient. Lastly, he discusses the importance of policy and his congressionally appointed role on the US Health and Human Services Health IT Advisory Committee. Erin, welcome to the program.

Aaron Miri 1:05
Thanks very much for having me.

Tim Crawford 1:07
Aaron Miri, you’re the CIO of Dell Medical School at the University of Texas at Austin. To get us started, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and your role there at CIO?

Aaron Miri 1:18
Yeah, I appreciate the question. So, yeah, I’m CIO for Dell Medical School, and for UT Health Austin, that’s the clinical practice of Dell Medical School. I’ve been over here about a little over a year now. We are in Austin, Texas, which is also coined Silicon Hills. We are surrounded by a number of Fortune 10 giants, so we collaborate extensively across the entire ecosystem of technology. Our mission here at UT is really to inspire and to drive the next generation of leaders, thought leadership, and progressive teaching, and making sure that we churn out some of the best students, in our case, some of the best medical professionals possible, in addition to delivering some of the best outcomes for our patients that we serve,

Tim Crawford 1:58
you know, and this is a really important space to be talking about healthcare, that is, whether you’re talking about the start of the ecosystem in medical school or the outcome in terms of the provider world and everything in between. You know, innovation tends to play a pretty significant role these days in healthcare, and it has for some period of time. What’s your take on the importance of innovation today in that ecosystem, and also where you think tech giants and startups play in that.

Aaron Miri 2:28
Yeah, great question. So, to answer the question about innovation, I believe it is front and center, and incumbent upon us to innovate or die, and in healthcare, particularly, you probably see it on the news every single night about the terrible outcomes and life expectancy issues in this country, as compared to other countries in the world. Healthcare here in America is fantastic, but we’ve been doing the same thing for way too long, and so you have these new programs and these giants, such as University of Texas at Austin, that are saying, okay, enough. Let’s innovate. Let’s change the way we deliver care. Let’s change the way we teach how to deliver care, and let’s really put our money where our mouth is. And in our case, we built a brand new building, ambulatory building that has no patient waiting rooms, because we wanted to force the issue to make sure that patients are seen at the right place at the right time with the right caregivers to deliver care to them, and we did these things that are very atypical of a giant healthcare institution. So, you’re seeing these big bets being placed now. Where does that place technology in the spectrum? Obviously, technology is the equivalent of the central nervous system of the human body. You know, it’s great if you have great lungs and great brain and a great heart, but if your CNS, your central nervous system, is not firing, your body’s not going to move. It’s the same way with it in healthcare, and that it must be working at 110% for the rest of the body to move. And as you innovate the care delivery models, it has to be lockstep. That’s where the tech giants must play,

Tim Crawford 3:59
and I find it really interesting, how you’re talking about those big beds, but when I think of the ecosystem, you’ve got a pretty wide swath of folks that are involved in that ecosystem. You’ve got new entrants, whether that be the new physicians that are coming through medical school, new nurses, new practitioners, clinicians, but what about also the folks that have been practicing medicine for some period of time, how are you evolving just kind of that that pace and that that inertia that exists within healthcare today?

Aaron Miri 4:32
Yeah, you know, I think there is an obvious dichotomy in the industry with those practitioners for a long time and those who are new, and I often say this, that the medical students of today impress me, because they really believe that healthcare should be like Star Trek, right, where you can basically beam in a new organ, or you know, you have this tricorder that can read your vitals in like 10 seconds or less. I mean, it’s amazing, and the reality of it is that we’re just not there with technology, but it’s amazing also to me. That where the established practitioners are that bring such a fantastic awareness and a calmness to the environment that it allows these go-getter, overeager, over zealous, you know, young young practitioners to sort of stop and go, “Hey, actually, what’s the best bet here, right? How do we not try to build Star Trek, but how do we build ourselves the road to get to Star Trek, right? And so, once you mix the two together, you come up with a really good symbiotic balance. And so, the way I do it is I’m a big believer in getting out there and rounding and forming committees of folks to talk through complex issues, and if you bring the best and the brightest of the young zeal gets with the established I know how this is done. Together you get a great balance, and you get a great outcome from that when you’re choosing technologies. So it is about partnership, and it’s about communication, and it’s about transparency. And end of the day,

Tim Crawford 5:54
that’s great. And I was thinking about that balance, because I’ve often said that you need fresh eyes and you need wise eyes,

Aaron Miri 6:01
yes, great way of saying it,

Tim Crawford 6:03
and the combination of the two together bring some magic to it, but as you think about the future, you know, someone once said that you’re building the hospital that Steve Jobs would have built, what was meant by that, and why is that important?

Aaron Miri 6:18
Yeah, that’s a great question, that’s a prior life of mine by a writer named Carmine Gallo from the Wall Street Journal, that’s actually his words, and what he was referring to was building the learning health system, and so what has happened in healthcare is that we realized we were building these silos of data, electronic medical records, different types of modalities of care, but they weren’t really talking to each other, and more importantly, we were just experientially delivering care. We actually weren’t learning from how well did Aaron receive care, and what’s his outcome after the fact. So, when you look at a learning health system, it’s a complete cycle of communication, learning, iteration, and modification of your workflow and your processes, and so the hospital Steve Jobs would have built is one that’s simple, it’s one that’s intuitive, it’s one that learns from prior behaviors and prior data sets, and it’s constantly telling you or evolving your workflows and giving you actionable information on what to do, and so all of us now in the healthcare domain are trying to build this learning health system, and the catch 22 has been that those IT systems that were built for healthcare some time ago were never really designed to be that interoperable as, say, an Apple iPhone is with the App Store apps that run on it, so we have this push and pull going on right now where we’re trying to force a square into a round hole, but we’re getting there, and I think regulation will help us get there as well.

Tim Crawford 7:47
Regulation will help you. That’s interesting. As I think about, about this, those, you know, replacing those big systems, whether you’re working in healthcare or working in another industry, replacing those big systems is a pretty disruptive change to go through, and it can be incredibly costly. When I think about healthcare, I also think about just some of the cost structures, and how cost kind of flows through from the payers and from government organizations all the way through to the providers and ultimately to the physicians. How does that play a role in this, and then I also want to kind of move into talking about value-based care and innovation too.

Aaron Miri 8:27
Yeah, I think it all plays to the importance of it, though. What we have to keep front and center is that it’s about the patient, right, and it is a complex machine of what healthcare is, and it’s very easy to get lost in the discussion about payers and payer mix and payer strategies, or oh, what’s the latest, you know, gizmo in the market to be able to deliver care, but you know you get what you measure, and what worries me and worries my colleagues is that sometimes when you look at some of the measurements that are out there for quality or patient satisfaction, you begin to deviate away from what actually happened to Aaron, how did Aaron do in the course of care across the entire continuum of care, and what I mean by that is not everything takes place in the four walls of a hospital, things happen at home, things happen on the go, things happen at school, so to the degree of it, how are we measuring and actually assessing how is Aaron doing over the continuum of care, and so what we’re trying to do now, as we look at things that we try to measure, is we’re trying to package and say, okay, these 10 measures actually tell you that Aaron isn’t depressed, these 10 measures tell you that Aaron maybe has another issue he is unaware of that, he’s presenting for, and what the good news is, that a lot of research has been done around patient-reported outcomes, and all these other tools that are out there to try to suss out and go, okay, this is really what’s happening with Aaron, because today it’s very episodic, my knee hurts, I come in to get my knee checked out, but I may be depressed. Fast, I may also have a backache. I’m not telling you about how do we actually take care of Aaron and not take care of the ailment. That’s what we’ve got to move to, and that, and that’s where I believe the industry is beginning to migrate towards.

Tim Crawford 10:10
And I could ask you a whole series of questions about precision medicine, and I’m sure that conversation would be absolutely fascinating.

Aaron Miri 10:17
For a follow-up, that’ll be a follow-up podcast.

Tim Crawford 10:20
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and this is something that I think applies across industries. It’s not just specific to healthcare, but frankly, healthcare affects all of us personally as well as professionally. So, is a kind of dive into that, maybe just a little bit, you know, value-based care innovation, and then you also have this concept that you’ve talked about social determinants to improve care. Where do these fit into that conversation?

Aaron Miri 10:50
I think they’re critically important, and I’ll give you some examples of things that we’re doing here at the University of Texas at Austin. First of all, you know we have phenomenal partners in the community here, and as I said earlier, on this is Silicon Hill, so there’s a number of technology giants here that really want to help healthcare. I believe that there’s an altruistic aspect of healthcare where you can actually see where rubber meets the road and you can see populations of people getting better. So, in partnership with a number of tech startups and giants, we are doing things like measuring air quality. We’re looking at, you know, Austin, Texas, as a good open source map of all the rideshare information. So, who’s getting dropped off where? Who’s using the scooters? Right, you’d be amazed at how many people are present in our muscular skeletal clinic that thought they could ride a scooter, and they really can’t, and they end up, you know, getting, you know, an ankle sprain. So, it’s amazing how much data is out there that if you actually measure it, you’re able to get in front of some of these issues before they present, and it turns healthcare, instead of being reactionary, into preventative. And so, what does value-based care actually mean? It means, quite simply, let’s actually take care of Aaron in a way that’s meaningful, holistic, and takes care of the total errand, total errand being anywhere that I have been, anything that I am feeling, and making sure that we are, we’ve got you every step of the way, and so, whether it’s questionnaires, whether it’s sampling things like the data, like the air quality, and the third things I was telling you about, whether it’s making sure we look at your complete records, from your school-based records to your flu shot, to your immunization, to making sure that we’re taking into account everything, that’s what that is about, and it takes away this episodic nature that we’ve gotten into. When it comes to social determinants, social determinants are exactly that. It is, you know, what are you eating? Are you, do you live in a house that has adequate cooling and heating, and particularly here in Texas, cooling is important. Another thing here, important in Texas, is air quality, right? So, do you have the good air filters at your house to make sure that if you are allergic to pollen, that is, that is filtered out? It’s all these other dynamics that take partnerships across the entire ecosystem, and again, that’s what we’re doing, we’re partnering with all of these different folks that have these different data sets that stitch together a complete picture of what’s really going on with you, so when you show up, I already have an inkling of, you know, what I know you said your knee hurts, but I know these 10 other things hurt for you, we’re gonna take care of you at the same time with those, that’s where the industry has to get to,

Tim Crawford 13:18
but that’s that seems very ideal in a lot of ways, and you know much of this data might exist, but actually tapping into it seems challenging. How are you kind of getting over some of those hurdles of bringing the different data elements together in a meaningful way?

Aaron Miri 13:39
Yeah, great question. Healthcare traditionally has been siloed, and the reason for such is that there wasn’t too much incentive to share information in the past. I don’t believe there’s any, you know, generally speaking, that folks want to, you know, hoard the data so that they don’t share. That kind of goes against the grain as to what healthcare is about, but there was an incentive to do it. So systems weren’t designed for that there weren’t common constructs like API application programming interfaces or those types of mechanisms built in healthcare programming that you have in other industries, so now you’re having this push for software to be modernized using those non-classical techniques that are more mainstream now to be able to share information readily and easily, you have folks like Apple that have the Apple Health Kit to be able to, for folks to be able to download their medical record and take it with them on the go. You have these other players that weren’t there traditionally, so that’s making data easier to get to. The other thing about it is that there is a phenomenal partnership in the healthcare community, amongst particularly the CIO and medical community, and so when I reach out to my peers in Austin, they are more than happy to share, connect, and make sure we get over issues. I’ll give you a real-world example. I have a surgeon who presented to me. He said, “Aren, I have an 84 year old patient I know I’ve operated on her three times before in her life because I operated on another hospital system that happens to be across town from us. He said, “We. Don’t have a way to get their data, her data, so they’re literally faxing me hundreds and hundreds of pages for what I need to be able to read about her prior surgery, so it refreshes my mind. And I looked at my said, that’s crazy, what faxing, why? So I picked up the phone, called my peer at the other organization, and said, hey, this isn’t right, I don’t know why we don’t have an interface between us. Let’s get this done within two days. Our teams knocked it out, and sure enough, there was no more faxing between that institution and us. That’s the will that it takes. That’s the partnership that it takes. That’s the, you know, what this isn’t right. We’re going to make this right, and we’re going to fix it. That’s the attitude that we have to approach things with.

Tim Crawford 15:36
Wow, I mean, that’s impressive. That’s incredibly impressive, but that I wonder how that scales on a broader level, and I want to bring in one of your other roles that we haven’t talked about yet, and that is that you also serve in a policy capacity on the US Health and Human Services Health IT Advisory Board. Can you talk a little bit about your role on the board, and then also, how that might apply, or how that might help us get over some of these hurdles that we’re talking about, like data sharing.

Aaron Miri 16:08
Yeah, great question. So, I am a firm believer that policy is such an important element that we, as technologists, must intertwine ourselves with the policymakers in DC, or even at a state level here in Texas, who I talk to routinely, want to do the right thing, but a lot of them did not come from this industry, from healthcare, and so it’s incumbent on us as technologists to be able to explain to them that this is what happens if you, if you turn this lever, if you change reimbursement policy this way, this is how it affects, or how technology is not ready to accept and adopt that, and so I’ve been doing the policy roles for quite some time. I served on the prior policy committee, which is called the Health IT Policy Committee. We were really focused on meaningful use in some of the statutes of the ARA, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, that was established in 07 but then in 2015 a new law was signed into a new bill was signed into law by President Obama, called 20-First Century Cures. In that, established what’s called the Health IT Advisory Committee, which is this board you’re speaking of, where they were asking for the top, you know, dozen, two dozen folks across the country that served all domains, from technology to physicians to insurers, to kind of talk about some of these challenges, and say, How can we move the ball forward? I was congressionally appointed to this committee, so I was voted in by Congress, and so we talk about a lot of these issues as to what’s going to happen with the fact that it’s hard to get information between the two. How do we alleviate and also incentivize information sharing. How do we create and construct an information superhighway to allow folks to share information? Because one of my other personal passions is helping rural America, so how do we make sure that the hospital in rural America can connect as easily as me in Austin, Texas can? And so that’s what this committee is about, and so we’re working through those dynamics, and you’re about to see finalized into rule several very important policy considerations around information blocking around the trusted exchange framework, which is this super highway I was speaking towards, and a number of other dynamics that will incentivize as well as penalize if you refuse to share information, which will change the face of health care altogether. So, what’s happening now at the policy level is all of us are trying to educate the lawmakers, saying, “Okay, this is great concept, all the right intent, but make sure we are aware of the hurdles. I’ll give you an example of a hurdle: privacy and security state law often differs from federal law, and so if you look at very progressive states like California or Washington or others, they have very strict state laws and strict breach notification laws, as opposed to what federal regulation states. So, how do you reconcile those two? So, those are the kinds of things we bring up, we talk through, and we make folks aware of so that we don’t steam ahead with a with a giant dump truck and then run off the ground because we weren’t thinking ahead, so that’s the point of the committee. So, for anybody listening that’s involved with technology, involved with healthcare, get involved, get involved at the state level, get involved with a federal level. It’s free, you’re not compensated. This is really doing it for the right reasons, but it’s important because the work you do will affect everybody in this country.

Tim Crawford 19:24
Now that’s great, and I know that there have been some specific efforts to create almost like data exchanges at a state level where you could share data, but that hasn’t necessarily taken off for a number of reasons. I think part partly, who’s driving it, and partly the motivations behind it, and compensation, and the cost, and the rest.

Aaron Miri 19:47
You’re right. And if you look at some of the very successful HIE, health information exchanges, like Indiana, right? A colleague of mine, who serves on the policy committee, John Kansky, he was the CEO of the Indiana Health Exchange, fantastic guy. Brilliant, he has brought together a stakeholder group of all the hospitals and academic medical centers in Indiana and surrounding areas to consider and talk and work through things, much like we’re doing at a federal level, and they’ve been able to do some things in the Midwest that are just super impressive, and if you heard about the Regan Street Institute attached to IU, that is a phenomenal progressive data analytics type organization that looks at the healthcare data and derives phenomenal value out of what they are able to derive from that data, and so when you’re able to share information, you have institutes like Regan Street pop up, and that’s the beauty of it, right? So the hope is that with an information superhighway that now crosses the country, we can tether together everybody and create many more Reagan Street institutes to make sure that we’re successful across the entire country, because there’s no shortage of issues we’ve got to solve in healthcare, and there’s no shortage of patients that are going to be coming to the front door, people are only getting older and more complex in terms of their conditions, so the only way to get in front of this is with data.

Tim Crawford 21:04
Yeah, and the upside of this is we save lives. I mean, it’s, it’s a pretty dramatic change, you know. It’s not making a buck here or saving 50 cents there, we’re saving lives,

Aaron Miri 21:15
and you’re meaningfully saving lives. So, it’s not like some, you know, back of the napkin, how many covered lives did we saved, we truly helped a population of one of the populations I’m focused on right now, pediatric asthmatic children. Right, how do we make sure that they’re not having a condition or an episode at school? Right, that’s altruistic. There’s no compensation for that. That’s the right thing to do. That’s why we’re in healthcare. This is what we’re supposed to be doing, and yes, healthcare is a business, right? You have to keep the front doors open to be able to make sure you take care of people, but that’s why it’s not for profit, because you’re not looking to try to make a buck, you’re trying to break even to keep the doors open, but everything else goes back into the community. How can we take care of people and make sure they’re not getting sicker?

Tim Crawford 21:58
Yeah, and you talk about the community, and one of the things you mentioned is privacy, and I wanted to kind of delve into that. I think I’d be remiss in not asking you about the role of privacy, especially in healthcare data, but also cybersecurity, regulatory, and compliance requirements. I mean, this world is getting incredibly more complicated, especially in heavily regulated industries like healthcare. How are you approaching that? And as I’ve had conversations with other guests on the podcast, you know, we talk about the customer and we talk about trust of data. I’m curious, your perspective on how these different components come into play when you’re talking about healthcare

Aaron Miri 22:39
data. No great question. So, privacy to me is a very, very important topic, and something I’ve said numerous times in numerous forums is don’t be creepy with your technology, and what do I mean by that? Don’t be creepy, it’s a mantra that I follow in my life as a CIO, and as well as a speaker, and all these different forums I’m in that I’m trying to remind folks that you have to be transparent, you have to be collaborative, you have to talk to people in a language that’s simple. I mean, look at the EULAs, the end user license agreements of all the software that you use. If you were to look at those things, you would be scrolling for days, and they use language in there that even somebody like you and I, who read more business contracts in our lifetime than we probably care to even admit, you look at those sometimes like, what are you actually telling me in this, Eula, right? And yet you want me to accept responsibility for whatever. So we have to simplify the way we educate and we partner with our patients and make sure that people understand what does it mean to opt in or opt out of something that means you are willingly giving me your data to do with that which I shall do? Right, you have to partner with people, and that takes time, and that takes deliberate thought, and that takes effort, and that’s why, for so long, I believe that a lot of these technology vendors, not just in healthcare, but across the entire all spectrums, all industries have just sort of said, “Lawyers, you write this, EULA, I’ll put it up there, and people will hit accept, they won’t read it, and you’re good to go. And you find yourself in this quagmire now as a patient or a consumer of these technologies, saying, “What did I just agree to, right? And why are you reselling my data to China or to Russia? What’s going on here? And in healthcare, it’s even more gray. One of the areas that I have been highlighting to Congress directly is about these gray areas that are not a covered entity, meaning they don’t deliver traditional health care services, and thus they fall out of the auspice and protection of HIPAA, one of those companies, a lot of them are the genetic companies out there, like 23andMe and others, and I don’t mean to disparage them, I’m not trying to do that, but they fall under a gap in our current regulation where if there is a breach or they want to sell your data to whomever, they can now they. They promise they won’t, and that they will do everything they can to maintain integrity of it, but they don’t actually – they’re not covered by the law. So, there is no recourse for the Office of Civil Rights or other federal agency to investigate them as they would a hospital if I were to misplace your records. So, we have to also modernize our policy levers to make sure that the privacy angle is covered under all domains of healthcare, and that these new technology startups that are doing some really fabulous things operate in the same conditions as a covered entity. Once you do that, once you have a level playing field, that will begin to get consumer trust back into the spectrum, because today, I mean, I must have four or five credit agencies monitoring me, because I’ve had breaches with my credit card companies, with my movie company, all sorts of things. It’s inevitable that you’re going to have the same in healthcare as all these technology players start playing in there, but if they’re not covered by the same rules and regulations, we’re all going different speed limits down that highway.

Tim Crawford 25:58
I see this playing out in other spaces too, especially in research, and when you talk about healthcare and research and sharing of data, and how people want to share data, health data, but then on the other hand have a trust concern, and rightfully so, especially when you hear about breaches happening on a regular basis, not just in healthcare, but in other spaces where your own personal data is, I hazard to use the word, but you feel violated that your personal data is being misused in some way that you did not intend it to be.

Aaron Miri 26:31
This is true. I would say with research, though, what I appreciate so much about research is how careful the IRBs are at universities, in particular here at UT, we have a phenomenal oversight and compliance arm that really spends a lot of time with our researchers, our PIs, and making sure that all the i’s are dotted, t’s are crossed, that consent is given in a way that makes a lot of sense to the patients, particularly their human trials, and that people understand what they’re doing, but the cohorts that the populations of people are a lot smaller, right? You look at populations of 100 patients versus 10,000 that walk in your door over a month, so it’s a little bit easier to have rigor around, but your point is well made in that research is not immune to what the clinical enterprise is going through, and more to the point with research is that again you have to make sure you know who you’re sharing information with, particularly when you’re collaborating with numerous researchers, and I’ll share a public story about the University of Texas system. If you Google it, there was a recent sister institution, part of the UT system, that had to expel several researchers because they were actually taking IP and data and shipping it to a foreign country, and they were accredited PhD true researcher, but they were acting as a foreign agent. So, the other dimension in research is that we have foreign espionage that occurs, and you have to be vigilant, you have to stay on top of it, and you have to know where the crown jewels are.

Tim Crawford 27:58
So, as we kind of wrap on this, because this has been a fascinating conversation. I can see so many parallels between what you’re experiencing and what you’re doing and what you’re driving in healthcare to other industries, non-healthcare related industries. I mean, there’s so many parallels, but as we wrap on this episode, I want to ask you, just what excites you most when you think about where you’re going from here, and, and the impact that you’re having, which has already been phenomenal. Where do you go from here? What excites you most?

Aaron Miri 28:30
I love this question, and so to me, the role of the CIO has never been more exciting, and particularly in healthcare, but I think across all industries, you have a chance. We sit at the nexus, this role sits at the nexus of the entire business of every business line of every product of every service line of anything that you’re doing. We are the central nervous system to make this thing go, and if you screw it up, you screw it up big, but if you hit it out of the park, boy, you can make a home run, and that’s the most exciting thing, is to be able to innovate, ideate, learn from people who are just absolutely brilliant and truly try to push the envelope. I mean, I feel I pinch myself every single day. I’m at UT, we just won a Nobel Prize. Professor Goodenot just won the Nobel Prize for his lithium battery design. You know, we have these people here that are rocket scientists, literally, and I get to be around them and learn from them and go, okay, How can I apply their genius to healthcare? How can I apply their equations, their ideas, and all the different colleges back to healthcare? And I think everybody has that opportunity, wherever you are, whatever industry you are, which is take the best of the best, apply it, and watch the business succeed because of it. That’s why being a CIO is successful,

Tim Crawford 29:41
that’s a great call to action. Aaron, thanks so much for being part of the program today.

Aaron Miri 29:45
Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.

Tim Crawford 29:50
For more information on the CIO in the No podcast series, visit us online at CIO itk.com or you can find us on iTunes, Google Play. And SoundCloud, don’t forget to subscribe, and thank you for listening, thank.