Introduction
This week I’m joined by Ralph Loura, the CIO of Lumentum. In our conversation, Ralph discusses how he is leading through crisis. He shares his perspective on the social impact to business and things that might be overlooked. Ralph also touches on the changes to technology and innovation.
Speaker Profiles
Ralph Loura Twitter: https://twitter.com/RalphLoura
Ralph Loura LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ralphloura/
Lumentum: https://www.lumentum.com/
Audio File
Featured Hashtags
#CIO #Leadership #CEO #DigitalTransformation #CIOitk
Podcast Transcript
Tim Crawford 0:00
The companies are looking for new ways to transform their business to remain relevant and differentiated within their industry. Technology now plays a central role in this transformation. Hello, and welcome to the CIO in the Know podcast, where I take a provocative but pragmatic look at the intersection of business and technology. I’m your host, Tim Crawford, a CIO and strategic advisor at Avoa. This week, I’m joined by Ralph Loura, the CIO of Lumentum. In our conversation, Ralph discusses how he is leading through crisis, he shares his perspective on the social impact to business and things that might be overlooked. Ralph also touches on the changes to technology and innovation. Ralph, welcome to the program.
Ralph Loura 0:53
Thanks, Tim. It’s great to be here.
Tim Crawford 0:54
So, you and I have known each other for quite a long time. I’ve been wanting to have you on the program for quite a while, and I’m glad that we’re finally able to make the time to make this work to get us started. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about who you are and your role as CIO at Lumentum?
Ralph Loura 1:13
Well, thanks, Tim, I’m a big fan of the podcast, and so thrilled to be on myself. So, my role as CIO, and I guess I’m a serial CIO. I’ve been CIO for several companies in several industries, and I’ve enjoyed the journey. So, this has gone on almost 20 years in various CIO roles in tech and consumer goods and online retail and healthcare, and I couldn’t be more thrilled to be at Lamentum. I think after my last gig, I took some time to kind of figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up, and Momentum presented some friends of mine connected me to the leadership team, and to the work the company is at the forefront of delivering photonic solutions that really help power this conversation, right, that are based on how the internet works, how the world communicates, so fiber optics and photonics are at the core of all that, and the company do some really cool things. My role as CIO is to help deliver the technology that helps power how the company runs, of course, internally, but also in a couple of cases help support the products we bring to market and how we deliver the value we deliver to our customers.
Tim Crawford 2:19
That’s great, so just to put some context in this, we’re recording this session in May of 2020 and I think that’s important to note, just because we’re in the middle of this really interesting time, and I say interesting with air quotes, just because for some it’s horrific, for others it’s a lot of confusion as we go through the virus crisis with Covid 19 coronavirus, we get into the economic crisis, and we talk about the social impact. Why don’t we talk about the role of it? I know you have some interesting perspectives on how these crises are impacting you both personally as well as professionally, but then also your perspective on where it fits into this. Let’s start there with our conversation.
Ralph Loura 3:07
Yeah, so it’s interesting. I think, like most people, right, that either you saw it coming or you didn’t. But once the shelter in place announcements started coming in, in various geographies and countries, most IT functions went into their tactical response mode, like, “Hey, I got to get people activated. We’ve got to make sure my work-from-home technology is working. How do I instrument and manage and scale and support the business in this sort of pivot, this dramatic traffic and behavioral pivot that lasted, depending on how prepared you were, a week or two for most companies till it became the new normal of being home on video calls and supporting a larger portion of your population on VPN and other technologies. Then we went into the sort of tactical, the next tactical response mode, going, okay, so now that we got that done, we keep the lights on, we can still communicate what’s coming at me next, and it became, oh, I’ve got to deal with new protocols for entering and exit buildings. I’ve got to build and prepare for the things that were just normal operating procedure, like, oh, I’m going to refresh a certain percentage of PCs this quarter, or I’ve got interns showing up this summer, and all of a sudden those became much more complicated tasks that we had to plan around, and so you went into that tactical mode of how do I get through the quarter, and I think now that we’re a couple of months in, most of us have gotten through the tactical parts of that work, and now it gets interesting. Now we get to the strategic parts of how it responds, what role it plays, and where we go from here.
Tim Crawford 4:37
So once we get past that tactical piece, because I think many IT leaders have been so just heads down on that tactical piece of getting a computer in front of every employee, not every employee had a computer at home, which in this day and age you might scratch your head, but the reality is what it is. I know of other leaders that basically sent their teams out to buy. Every computer they could get their hands on, go to every big box store warehouse, and buy every computer, monitor, mouse, keyboard you could, because they knew they couldn’t get it through their normal distribution chain fast enough, or if they could get it at all. But once you get past that tactical piece, what kind of starts to come in mind? I mean, I would think that cybersecurity plays a role in this, especially as you think about strategy. How do you start to think about getting back to the core of what your business is and where you go from here?
Ralph Loura 5:31
I feel blessed. We have an executive leadership team that’s incredibly connected to our team and our people in general, and their first priority was keep everybody safe, keep everybody healthy and make the right decisions, and we started meeting as an executive team daily at the end of January. So we acted relative to everyone else, and we continue to meet daily and work through all those issues. So once we’ve worked through the, let’s say, the tactical, how do I get people’s stuff and solve those problems? The next thing is, okay, what role can it play in some of the broader challenges in the business, and maybe it’s a non-traditional role where it isn’t always worried about logistics or worried about how do I do a month-end close virtually, or in our case, how do I complete a quality audit virtually in a team that’s never done that and maybe doesn’t even have protocols for doing that, and so we began partnering very, very quickly, very strategically with almost every function in the company around, well, what’s in front of you? What are your challenges? What is on your plan that you think you can’t manage? And then let’s get together and figure out how to creatively do that. Two examples of that: one, we’re a six sigma based company, we do a lot of, we use a Toyota manufacturing system. Terms like Hoshin and Kaizen are typical concepts that we use every day. Well, many of these require a team to get together on a whiteboard and use like sticky notes and tape strings up for flow, and to use things like cardboard and styrofoam to do mock-ups. That’s really hard to do in a virtual world, and a lot of the virtual whiteboarding tools really are really rudimentary. So, we went out and we evaluated 28 different online platforms in the course of five days, picked small teams to evaluate each of these based on feature function. Then we got three of them into work with small teams on a couple of exercises, and we picked a tool that we’re quite happy with, that is facilitating real interactive whiteboarding, sticky note, brainstorming sessions. It includes a number of other functionality, like mind mapping and other things that are really interesting. And prior to this event, it would have been really hard to get any of our engineering and innovation teams to step away from a whiteboard with a marker, and now I think after the event they may, in fact, prefer this method because it creates a great digital artifact, and some of the things after the fact. And then the other example is, so we just did an earnings call today, have an audit committee meeting, we have a board meeting next week, so again, it leaders are expected to become experts overnight in things like, hey, How do I run a virtual secure board meeting, and there’s the technology part of that, but there’s also one of the sections we wrote in our new policy on secure virtual meetings, is, hey, remind the participants that you have to be aware of your physical surroundings, wear a headset, don’t put it on speaker, particularly for other people in the house, close your windows, we don’t want your neighbors hearing our next year financial forecast, so just being aware of your situational awareness of what’s around you becomes an issue when you’re not in a boardroom with the curtains drawn in the door lock.
Tim Crawford 8:32
Do you think that some of those changes with your engineering team as well as with your board will stick after the stay at home orders start to get lifted and people start to re-enter into the workplace, do you think any of those pieces will stick, and if so, which ones?
Ralph Loura 8:50
So it’s interesting as we look at the current economic crisis, how that’s reshaping both our society and our economy and companies, but also the social impact of the stay at home order, the ongoing risk that most likely we’re going to live with for many, many months going forward into some degree that even once Covid is behind us and vaccines exist, the fact that there may be another event like this at some point in our future, I think begins to change some behavior. So we’ve already done a lot of return to work planning, so we’ve got an active plan that’s ready to execute once the stay-at-home order is lifted, we don’t believe this is a light switch. It’s not like we’re all going back to normal, it’s going to be great again. Our view is this is a gradual return, and even then many things are never going to go back to the way they were. So we expect day one to have fewer than half our people back in the office. Do we expect to rotate teams in and out, maintain a sort of checkerboard in terms of seating, so that people aren’t too close to each other? There’ll be mask wearing, a lot of other protocols, but there’s also, we’ve realized, you know, there’s a lot of roles that otherwise we’re commuting two to three hours round trip every day in and out of congested metropolitan area, is that congestion. Very effectively, very easily be done at home, so we are never a work from home culture. We may move to a model where a good portion of our workforce works from home and maybe comes in every other Friday for in person, face to face connections, and so on. So that’s a model that I think is going to accelerate for us, that would have been much more difficult for us to get to organically.
Tim Crawford 10:21
You know, there was a fellow CIO who I know you and I both know that made a comment recently, and another publicly traded company too made a comment recently that they don’t expect their IT team to come back to the office through this great experiment, which we’re all living globally through this great experiment, they’ve realized that for the most part, most of the IT functions can actually be done remotely, and so they don’t necessarily need to be in the office to perform the job. Now, I realize that might kind of clash with some cultures too, but I’m curious, your thoughts on what this means in terms of those personal connections, you know, those social connections, and then I also kind of want to touch on DNI as part of this too.
Ralph Loura 11:08
So it’s interesting, I think, sort of ironically, now that we’re all physically isolated, I’m having more meaningful personal conversations and connections with most of my team than I did before, because before it was, you’d have a one on one, and you’d talk about work, or you’d have a project meeting, or staff update, and you talk about work-related things, and yeah, you might talk a bit about what you did over the weekend, or a sporting event, or a concert, or something, but you didn’t get super into the details, and now almost every conversation I have starts with something like, how are you doing? How’s the family? How’s your daughter, who’s in high school? How’s your son, who graduated college? Is he.. how’s he navigating finding a job? And, like, this must be tough. And are you taking care of yourself and getting physical? Like, it’s a lot more personal, in a good way, not in an evasive way, but in a here, supporting you, understanding you, connecting kind of way, which is great. I do think the prediction that we’re never, you know, it will never go back to work kind of thing is a bit dangerous, because this model works really well when everybody is remote, everybody is virtual, but once you get a have and have not culture again, oh, there’s a bunch of people in the office who are seeing and interacting with each other, when there’s some people at home, it’s easy to end up being out of the loop on things, so we’ve got to figure out a model of keeping people in sync once some sort of semblance of return happens, otherwise the magnetic pull of information will be forced, people will be forced to be drawn back into the office again.
Tim Crawford 12:39
Yeah, let’s face it, the virtual connections, even with the personal interactions, still doesn’t replace the water cooler talk?
Ralph Loura 12:47
Right, right. The one thing that is nice, though, is we’re building new, not only new systems, but new habits. So, one of the memes going around I’ve seen in the IT world, first of all, COVID has been very, very friendly to the meme world, lots of memes circulating daily, but in the IT space, many of us, for a long time, have talked about digital transformation. The term, the Uber of, or the Airbnb of, became pretty common as people talked about physical industries being disrupted by digital players, and so what was often the question was, gee, who’s leading digital transformation at your company? Is it the CEO, the CIO, and now the question is, or is it COVID 19? And I think that’s pretty apt, right? Because part of the problem, most companies didn’t – it wasn’t that they didn’t want to use digital tools, it’s that you know people get set in waves, they get set in behaviors, they build patterns of behavior and systems, and so on. And so, what COVID 19 has done is forced people to become digital, accept digital ways of interacting and working overnight, even people who traditionally would have resisted them. We have broken down walls, we have changed behavior. The question is, will we revert to old behavior after, or will those behavioral patterns in systems stay in use?
Tim Crawford 13:56
Yeah, that’s one of the $64,000 questions. Before we jump to technology, I want to get your thoughts on DNI and the impact that you think this will have to diversity and inclusion, both short term, but then also long term.
Ralph Loura 14:10
So, I think one of the things I think comes out of these personal connections, these personal conversations, is you get even people that have worked together for a decade or more are beginning to get a glimpse into some of the personal challenges and options in life of other people, of those people that they’ve worked with for years that they maybe never saw before, challenges their teenage kids are having, or their in-laws are having, or whatnot. So, it’s hard, unless you’re really obtuse or very self-centric, it’s hard not to have a greater set of empathy for the people you work with and work for and work for you than before, and I think that empathy translates to a more inclusive environment, a more tolerant environment. We unfortunately still have a gender pay gap in many companies, and there was always a sort of unspoken, or in some cases. Overtly spoken bias about working moms, and you know, they have kids at home, and everybody has kids at home now. Everybody’s being interrupted by their kids as they’re on a conference call or in a board meeting, and I think people have come to realize that’s part of the human condition, and it shouldn’t matter gender or race or whatever, and I think this set of empathy, this earned empathy that we’ve, we’ve got over the last couple of months, hopefully carries forward in a way that’s a more empathetic workplace that’s more friendly to the DNI issues.
Tim Crawford 15:32
Yeah, I want to suggest that that hope, I hope it does as well. I hope it carries forward. How do you think that changes us as leaders, there’s been this concern for a long time that leaders, and some might argue that it’s not really a leader, it’s more of a manager. But how does it change us as leaders to stop thinking about people as resources and start thinking about people as people?
Ralph Loura 15:55
There’s a lot of leadership quotes and adages about people don’t work for companies that work for people that people first kind of approach, and a lot of people have a corporate slogan somewhere with a mission and vision statement that talks about our people are our greatest asset, and so on, but a lot of companies historically haven’t walked that talk, and a lot of individual leaders haven’t lived that. I think that changes for in a lot of ways. So, one, you know, we’re just seeing a devastating impact economically across the globe, things like one in 10 workers in America work somewhere in the restaurant or bar industry, and they’ve been devastated by the current events. All the small business owners, even large companies, some have stepped up and said they’ve made public statements, “We will not have forced reductions as part of COVID. Others have tried to hold on to staff, but done things like deferred bonuses, deferred raises, or taken pay cuts, but how leaders, how companies have approached their people through this crisis, and their response to those, are we here for the shareholders, are we here for you? How do we balance that, and what’s the sort of how do we view social impact, and how do we view our own employee base, and how we treat them is going to make or break a lot of companies in terms of whether they’re truly living their culture, and I think that those are the sort of things that are going to go once you go through the crucible of sorts of an experience like this as a manager, as a leader, it really hopefully either reshapes or at least refines a lot of the way you think about the staff that are delivering for you every day.
Tim Crawford 17:26
Yeah, that thing called corporate social responsibility really comes to the forefront, and maybe it’s something that sticks and actually becomes a central conversation point as people think about who they want to be and who they want to represent as an organization.
Ralph Loura 17:40
Yeah, that’d be great.
Tim Crawford 17:42
So, is we kind of shift from people, and we talk about technology, and, and I think one of the things that needs to be said is we should all be grateful that we work in technology, because there are a lot of benefits that we get from that. Number one is the ability to work is a fundamental aspect, and understanding the challenges, but what are some of the things that you’re experiencing, or that you’re seeing, that is moving forward, maybe even being accelerated, or being put on hold? How is technology starting to shift in your mind?
Ralph Loura 18:15
It’s interesting, you know, the kind of obvious thought would be, hey, the safe projects, the incremental improvement, the layered on one next step kind of stuff would be a safe move, and therefore kind of prioritized, and a lot of those sandboxy, riskier things would just get back burnered for a while until things come through the other side. I think that would be true if this was sort of an incremental or temporary or whatever event, but because this has been such a deep, and I won’t say black swan, because this is not a black swan event. This is absolutely predictable, based on a number of things that we would have a global pandemic, and so on. But this unusual event that we’re living through, because of that, I think some of these more out there and riskier technology investments or choices all of a sudden become really interesting. People are more open-minded to try things, and some of those incremental, another layer, one louder kind of things have become less exciting, and therefore are easier to backburner. And so, for instance, the couple things come to mind: one is a lot of work on RPA, robotic process automation, using platforms like Automation Anywhere, UiPath, or Blue Prism, and many others out there that are built on top of those stacks. Whereas before, it might have been fairly simple to say, you know what, I’m not going to get wrapped up in all that. I’ve got a low-cost offshore team that’s doing invoice matching or accounts payable, and I’m just not going to disrupt it right now. It’s not the highest priority. Things like, wow, if I can apply technology to this, and now I’m not at risk to a set of folks in India or Eastern Europe or Asia that’s doing that work for me, being disrupted either politically or environmentally or from a virus, so accelerating some of those ML AI. RPA kind of kind of solutions becomes interesting. Similarly, in it, there’s a company called Moveworks that I think a lot of folks are aware of. They’re looking to use ML and AI and bot technology to really automate much of what’s done at the service desk today. And again, it seemed like a bit of a science project to some companies in the past. Hey, it’d be kind of cool to have one of those, but I’m not going to bank on a lot. And now all of a sudden, a lot of people are saying, you know, my employees are very comfortable chatting online now. I’m absolutely think there’s value here, and I’d much rather rely on a technology like this to solve problems for me than to try to scale my business by hiring more low-cost help desk people in a call center or something like that, so those technologies win. I think the area that is maybe somewhat surprising, or some area that some people are missing. So, security has been an ongoing discussion and a bit of a challenge across technology stacks for a long time now. A lot of things just happen that are going to make security front and center in a lot of companies in really uncomfortable ways, so one, we just moved the corporate boundary from the 22 buildings we have to the 4000 homes that people are working from now, and so the edge of the network just vanished, so this idea of zero trust and cloud-based and boundary-less computing were kind of interesting concepts for some companies. Have now become real, and a lot of companies aren’t ready to deal with it. So, do you have proper endpoint management, or you’re using a tool like Zscaler, or some of the modern Palo Alto solutions, etc. to really understand what’s happening and protect that edge in a different way from an edge perspective.
Ralph Loura 21:43
A friend of mine was a CTO at a large software company, spent some time at the DOD, and is now doing a startup of his own, and was built a story recently about someone hacking his home network, and I don’t mean hacking his own network like some guy in his bedroom in Ukraine, but like somebody rolled up a van 300 feet from his house and popped up a rogue access point and tried to do a man in the middle attack, that’s pretty legit. Okay, what about your board members? What about your key, your CEO, your key leaders of public companies who are now working from home? Are they truly secure? Have they done things like isolated their work equipment on a separate subnet versus their their Samsung smart TV or their Ring doorbell or their Nest Cam, and how many companies are truly safe in those work from home environments?
Tim Crawford 22:33
Yeah, and especially when those devices are still using the default password, technology becomes more interesting when we start talking about trying to support people’s home networks in the myriad of different combinations of technology or lack thereof that might exist within those environments.
Ralph Loura 22:56
Well, and speaking of sort of tactical versus strategic, the tactical response to all of that. All of this was help me, help me, help me. Like, can you make my Wi-Fi faster? Can you improve the stability of my network? Can you help me with my home setup? And so I think many people almost instantly threw privacy concerns out the window, like, oh, company IT guys are going to help me get things working, and can you reach in and monitor this and patch that and fix that? You know, I think there’s going to be a privacy backlash in a quarter or so. When people realize, wait a minute, you mean when I run a Zoom call at home, you have from the Zoom dashboard the ability to see what computer I’m running on, how busy the CPU is, how much memory is there, what my packet rate is, which carrier network I’m connected to what’s my IP address, where I live, like that’s information I don’t want you to have. Oh, but that’s information I need to have to provision and manage a reliable service. So we’re going to have to go back and revisit GDPR and Cal privacy, and some of these other options in this work from home world to make sure we’re kind of clear on things.
Tim Crawford 24:00
Yeah, and even beyond the technology and the cybersecurity issues. I mean, you talk about the legal ramifications around privacy, I mean, regulatory compliance. I’ve seen a number of those situations that have been thrown out the window temporarily just to get companies working, just so people can get working, they can get functional, and the thought being that okay, it’s, it’s a risk decision, it’s a business decision to say I’m going to hedge risk of not doing it versus doing it, which way do I go?
Ralph Loura 24:33
As soon as the shelter in place order is lifted and people start going back to the office, that’s going to include things like mandated policies, like everyone must have their temperature taken on the way in the door. If you don’t feel well, you’re obligated to tell someone, and then you’re obligated to go home. Okay, how do I make sure I’m not violating HIPAA laws by I’m going to take your temperature, but then I can’t record it, I can’t store it anywhere, because I don’t want that. That’s personal health and. Information, I don’t want to capture. If you’re not feeling well, you should tell your manager, or you should tell HR, but HR is not allowed to share health information. Like, how do I know who’s going to come into work in the morning or not, based on how that? Like, it becomes really complicated, and how we navigate it. Does it?
Tim Crawford 25:14
Does someone mentioned a fellow CIO mentioned just last week in a conversation that in some ways we’re all becoming healthcare companies to some degree, of course. For those very reasons, we have to think through these different ramifications, because you’re right, just the simple act of recording this information. Well, guess what? There are restrictions around what you do with that.
Ralph Loura 25:38
Well, I said to another friend of mine, a friend of ours, who has recently retired as CIO of a large tech company, is now CEO of a cloud company, and among other things, they’ve built a solution that integrates with your access points or any cameras on site and your bad sensors, and can start doing things like track, doing essentially contact tracing around your building, and or things like, hey, there are too many people in this lab at one time, based on access points, pinging laptops or cell phones, and so they can start giving you proactive information about are people complying or not complying with distancing, which is great, but now there’s the wait a minute, you’re tracking my movement around the building, that’s uncomfortable kind of conversation.
Tim Crawford 26:21
Well, in, and I think some of this comes back to, you know, it’s not about what you are, aren’t tracking it, it comes back to a fundamental of what are you doing with the data, what are you doing with that information, right? When you think about the role of technology, and especially COVID 19, the coronavirus, the virus crisis, and the economic crisis is really causing us to think differently about our businesses. It’s causing us to think differently about how we we operate, how we function, and things we might have taken for granted. You mentioned earlier in the conversation about you could outsource some of that function to a team in India. Okay, but what happens if that team or that particular location, those folks are sick, they’re not able to work. What can you do? How has this caused your thinking to shift in terms of business models, in terms of supply chain? I’ve heard some conversation with other CIOs around the role of technology and in changing business models and creating more flexible supply chains. I’d be curious to get your thoughts on that.
Ralph Loura 27:22
Yeah, so I think it’s interesting coming up to this, the year or so leading up to the COVID crisis. As a business, we, along as many, many other people in the economy, have lived through what this new normal of a kind of nationalistic behavior, trade wars, tariffs, so the whole China trade war thing that our current administration is working through some even challenges with the EU, Brexit, and how that impacts things. Those of us with global distributed teams and global distributed supply chains have had to be really nimble in the way that we respond to very rapidly changing rules and regulations, costs based on tariffs and their way things work and I think that combined with a general nationalistic tendency politically in many countries around the world you then add COVID on top of that and now you take all the other things you add a sort of health anxiety and a political anxiety and a risk to that I think what you’re going to see is a lot of people rethinking that strategy, their strategy of talent, their strategy of location and supply chain, and you’re going to see more vertical integration, and you’re going to see more repatriation of assets and resources, and I think it does accelerate technology, AI, ML, and technology solutions that diminish your dependency on low-cost offshore labor, for instance.
Tim Crawford 28:45
Yep. No, I love it. So, Ralph, as we kind of wrap on the episode, I just quickly wanted to get your thoughts. So, what are you looking forward to, aside from being able to leave your house? What are you looking forward to as we kind of move into this future that we’re all facing,
Ralph Loura 29:02
yeah, yeah. Well, like I said, I mean, we’ve all been pulling it seems like pushing kind of a work up a rope to try to get digital transformation done in some companies, and I think now we’re going to be pulled along by the waves of change and some other things, and it’s our opportunity now to think of it really differently, like we’ve talked a lot about, oh, we want it to be a profit center, not a cost center. That’s really hard to do in a lot of industries and a lot of functions. You’re kind of given permission or license to do that. I think even if you’re not a true P and L, you don’t have a set product you’re selling and revenue you’re collecting for a product as an IT function. I think absolutely the mindset of every functional CIO today has to be thinking like a profit owner. They have to be thinking in terms of where does it generate value for this business. Every headcount choice you make, every software contract you sign, every cloud procurement agreement or consumption model. Well, you have to be thinking, what did I get for that money? I spent $100,000 on this. What return did I get on that spending for the company? Did we get growth? Did we get new faces? This, we get risk reduction. What did I get for that? And I think starting to think a lot more like true P&L or business owners, and a lot less like cost center leaders, is hopefully one of the lasting effects of COVID on the IT community.
Tim Crawford 30:25
That’s great, great way to end it. Ralph, thank you so much for taking the time today and being on the program.
Ralph Loura 30:31
I loved it, Tim. Thanks for having me.
Tim Crawford 30:35
For more information on the CIO in the Know podcast, visit us online at CIO in the know.com You can also find us on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. Please subscribe, and thank you for listening.
Unknown Speaker 30:48
Thank.
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